The Charleston Crybaby.
Well, there's just been sooooooo much activity over the last 2 weeks, It's almost hard to know where to start.
For today's post, let's just go with Thornton Cooper v. Danny Jones and the Charleston worker tax. I think Danny Jones should try out for some pro wrestling circuit. He could be nicknamed The Charleston Crybaby. On Jerry Waters' radio show the other day, he had Thornton Cooper on to discuss Dannyboy's worker tax. The wrangling over getting this thing on a ballot, has been absolutely ridiculous. I guess if Dannyboy had done his job the first time, and followed the proper procedures, we wouldn't be worrying about it. But he didn't. He tried to ram through his little cash grab extortion scheme, and whoops, evidently, he's not a dictator. He's got to jump through some hoops. I know this will come as a complete shock to Dannyboy, but thankfully, we have the courts to keep an eye on these jackasses.
The current state is that the Charleston residents get to vote on the user fee ordinance, but Danny is trying his best, to make that as difficult as possible. He keeps saying "well, we'll have to have a special election and that will cost all this money." Well, I go back to what I said earlier. If he had followed the rules to begin with, we wouldn't need a special election. Any extra taxpayer dollars that are spent (including all the lawyer fees Charleston paid to their lawyers), are having to be spent ENTIRELY because Jones didn't do his job. The extra dollars expended for this, are nobody's fault, but Jones'. But he'll be on the radio and tv and in the newspapers whining that it's Cooper's fault for bringing the lawsuit. Well boo hoo hoo. Imagine that, a politician has to follow the rules.
But the best part is the absolutely disgusting show of immaturity and petulance by Jones after Cooper was on Waters' show. He then called in and complained that Cooper was "a freakshow" and "a jailhouse lawyer." So, the mayor of the state's largest city, is reduced to 3rd grade name calling to try and defend his dictatorial actions? He then proceeded to chide Cooper for being a government employee (Cooper retired from the Public Service Commission as an attorney), stating something along the lines of "well, thank god for state government so Cooper could have a job and suck down a government pension." And what the hell had Jones done in his life? He's been Sheriff (sucking off the government teat). He's been in the House of Delegates (sucking off the government teat). He's been Regatta Director (sucking off the government teat). He's been "sanitation director," where he got lots of press for riding around on a garbage truck, like he's some sort of blue collar guy (who happens to have been born wealthy, and never really needed a job in his life). And now he's Mayor. At least Cooper got a job and managed to hang on to it, instead of jumping from job to job. And I bet Jones will get a government pension too, before it's all over. Every one of you state employees that live in Charleston, should remember what The Charleston Crybaby said about Cooper.
Jones simply personally attacked Cooper. Jones derided him for working for state government because Cooper sued the city, and actually won his case on a procedural point showing that Jones didn't do his job.
Now, about getting the issue on the primary election ballot. We now have the optical scanner vote machines. And evidently, Cooper wants to put the entire ordinance on every ballot. But, evidently, we can't do that. We can't print the 5 pages or whatever, of the ordinance for every ballot. But, we've got all these new high tech whizbang voting machines. And yet, we can't vote the way we are supposed to. Here's a thought. If it's not actually possible to add 7 pages to the ballot, just give you an EXTRA ballot for the user fee ordinance. A paper one. With 2 boxes on it. One box for "yes," one box for "no." You make an X in the one you choose. You could count those ballots by hand, in just a couple hours. I don't mind waiting until 10 or 11 pm to find out if it passed. I don't need election results at 8pm. Our country worked damn fine, for a couple hundred years, not knowing the actual results of the elections for sometimes WEEKS after the election. But Kent Carper and others have lamented that if we do that, the paper user fee ballots might not get counted for an hour or two afterwards, and the possibility for tampering exists. Are you kidding me? We now can't have ballots wait an hour or two to be counted? How the hell did we stop tampering before now? Did the possibility of tampering not exist before the optical scanner machines? Don't insult my intelligence, Kent. Put them in a locked room, and leave them there until you can count them. This isn't rocket science. Hell, I don't care if I go to bed that night, and not know the answer. I can find out in the morning.
All this "oh, but we can't DO that on these new machines," crap is hysterical. Well, guess what? If you can't do that on the "new" machines, your "new" machines, suck.
For today's post, let's just go with Thornton Cooper v. Danny Jones and the Charleston worker tax. I think Danny Jones should try out for some pro wrestling circuit. He could be nicknamed The Charleston Crybaby. On Jerry Waters' radio show the other day, he had Thornton Cooper on to discuss Dannyboy's worker tax. The wrangling over getting this thing on a ballot, has been absolutely ridiculous. I guess if Dannyboy had done his job the first time, and followed the proper procedures, we wouldn't be worrying about it. But he didn't. He tried to ram through his little cash grab extortion scheme, and whoops, evidently, he's not a dictator. He's got to jump through some hoops. I know this will come as a complete shock to Dannyboy, but thankfully, we have the courts to keep an eye on these jackasses.
The current state is that the Charleston residents get to vote on the user fee ordinance, but Danny is trying his best, to make that as difficult as possible. He keeps saying "well, we'll have to have a special election and that will cost all this money." Well, I go back to what I said earlier. If he had followed the rules to begin with, we wouldn't need a special election. Any extra taxpayer dollars that are spent (including all the lawyer fees Charleston paid to their lawyers), are having to be spent ENTIRELY because Jones didn't do his job. The extra dollars expended for this, are nobody's fault, but Jones'. But he'll be on the radio and tv and in the newspapers whining that it's Cooper's fault for bringing the lawsuit. Well boo hoo hoo. Imagine that, a politician has to follow the rules.
But the best part is the absolutely disgusting show of immaturity and petulance by Jones after Cooper was on Waters' show. He then called in and complained that Cooper was "a freakshow" and "a jailhouse lawyer." So, the mayor of the state's largest city, is reduced to 3rd grade name calling to try and defend his dictatorial actions? He then proceeded to chide Cooper for being a government employee (Cooper retired from the Public Service Commission as an attorney), stating something along the lines of "well, thank god for state government so Cooper could have a job and suck down a government pension." And what the hell had Jones done in his life? He's been Sheriff (sucking off the government teat). He's been in the House of Delegates (sucking off the government teat). He's been Regatta Director (sucking off the government teat). He's been "sanitation director," where he got lots of press for riding around on a garbage truck, like he's some sort of blue collar guy (who happens to have been born wealthy, and never really needed a job in his life). And now he's Mayor. At least Cooper got a job and managed to hang on to it, instead of jumping from job to job. And I bet Jones will get a government pension too, before it's all over. Every one of you state employees that live in Charleston, should remember what The Charleston Crybaby said about Cooper.
Jones simply personally attacked Cooper. Jones derided him for working for state government because Cooper sued the city, and actually won his case on a procedural point showing that Jones didn't do his job.
Now, about getting the issue on the primary election ballot. We now have the optical scanner vote machines. And evidently, Cooper wants to put the entire ordinance on every ballot. But, evidently, we can't do that. We can't print the 5 pages or whatever, of the ordinance for every ballot. But, we've got all these new high tech whizbang voting machines. And yet, we can't vote the way we are supposed to. Here's a thought. If it's not actually possible to add 7 pages to the ballot, just give you an EXTRA ballot for the user fee ordinance. A paper one. With 2 boxes on it. One box for "yes," one box for "no." You make an X in the one you choose. You could count those ballots by hand, in just a couple hours. I don't mind waiting until 10 or 11 pm to find out if it passed. I don't need election results at 8pm. Our country worked damn fine, for a couple hundred years, not knowing the actual results of the elections for sometimes WEEKS after the election. But Kent Carper and others have lamented that if we do that, the paper user fee ballots might not get counted for an hour or two afterwards, and the possibility for tampering exists. Are you kidding me? We now can't have ballots wait an hour or two to be counted? How the hell did we stop tampering before now? Did the possibility of tampering not exist before the optical scanner machines? Don't insult my intelligence, Kent. Put them in a locked room, and leave them there until you can count them. This isn't rocket science. Hell, I don't care if I go to bed that night, and not know the answer. I can find out in the morning.
All this "oh, but we can't DO that on these new machines," crap is hysterical. Well, guess what? If you can't do that on the "new" machines, your "new" machines, suck.
posted by bingmanch at 9:42 PM
90 Comments:
Now this one is a step in the right direction. You still can't resist getting personal about Jones but since he got personal about Cooper, I'll consider that sauce for the gander in this case and you do raise an important issue.
The bottom line on this one is that Jones (with help from Carper) is trying desperately to force this issue to a special election because the user fee would likely lose if on the primary ballot where turnout will be high and include a broad cross section of voters.
It might win though if the user fee is relegated to a Saturday election during the summer where the turnout might be light and city workers would represent a large proportion of actual voters.
The lame excuses about the difficulty of putting it on the primary ballot are laughable. As Cooper has suggested, it would be very easy simply to put a copy of the ordinance in every voting booth for people to read if they want. The ordinance need not be ON THE ACTUAL BALLOT; it just needs to be available to the voters. This could be done with the referendum placed on the optical scan ballot or on a seperate paper ballot.
That Jones and Carper would deviously try to force a costly special election so their side has a better chance of winning is telling. The thing is they will probably pull it off because all they have to do is keep things up in the air until the primary ballt is required to be certified for printing and then it will be "too late" to put the user fee on the primary ballot.
As there is no "organized" opposition and the Mayor has at least one county commissioner and the County Clerk doing his bidding, he'll probably succeed in forcing a special election.
On the other hand, i'm not sure the user fee will be approved even in a special election.
what kind of an idiot would it take to vote a tax increase on yourself? thats what i want to know!
it isnt like the government doesnt take PLENTY of money, they need to manage it a little better, and fire bob graham! the guy turned in $719 in expenses on a trip that state workers turned in $119 for the same trip!
repub:
You are confusing things. City governments in WV are very limited in the ways they are allowed to raise revenue. Municipalities have no independent powers to enact taxes. Under the WV Constitution, they may only enact revenue ordinances which the WV Legislature specifically allows them to enact. The legislature has historically declined to give cities broad powers to collect revenue and that is one reason many city governments across the state are on the brink of financial collapse.
Bob Graham and other folks who feed off of state and federal funds have no relevance to this issue as his escapades have nothing to do with funds collected or not collected by municipalities.
As for your question, some "idiots" might decide that given their hometowns' limited revenue bases and the need for services and infrastructure that serve the general good that they should agree to pay to help support them. Other "idiots" simply refelexively oppose anything that might cost them, even if it's only an extra dollar a week on "principle."
There are "idiots" on all sides of these issues.
The issue involved here is not (yet) really the merits of the "user fee." The issue is what level of participation the public must exist in approving such "user fees."
The city first tried to argue that "representative participation" sufficed and that city council approval by elected representatives of city residents sufficed. Cooper argued both that "representative approval" was insufficient AND that non-residents cannot be assessed fees without a voice in the matter. The courts took a middle positiion holding city council approval did not suffice but that non-residents can be assessed the fees if city residents approve. (That non-residents can't be assessed fees or taxes imposed by a governmental unit would be a bizarre ruling that would essentially void much of the revenue legislation currently funding EVERY level of government across the state (and nation but a WV case would not affect out of state entities).
If cities can't collect taxes or fees from non-residents it would take seconds before people who are required to pay State taxes or fees but don't live in the state and don't get to vote in state elections would challenge the many state assessments they must pay to do their business in WV.
So now we have the ruling that CITY RESIDENTS must vote whether to allow the CITY GOVERNMENT to collect a dollar a week from everyone who works in Charleston-- including workers who do not live in Charleston and can't vote.
The desire of Jones to have the election separate from the primary is based on the belief that more opponents will vote in a primary but that a creatively scheduled special election will have a low turnout in which the supporters (e.g., city workers who will benefit from a larger city budget) will represent a larger proportion.
I'd vote for the fee as it is reasonable and there is NO QUESTION the city needs revenue to provide NEEDED services and infrastructure. That it might waste money on UNNEEDED things is certainly a valid point, but I'd prefer to deal with that eventuality if it occurs by getting rid of the officials responsible for the waste rather than depriving the institution of a practical revenue source which certainly can be put to good use.
I share the distaste for the political manipulations and disingenousness being displayed but I am able to distinguish those from the issue of whether it is a fair and reasonable way of raising a modest amount of needed revenue.
In fact, I suspect the user fee might lose not because it isn't a fair and reasonable way of raising a modest amount of needed revenue but because people will want to teach its chief advocate a lesson about playing fair and being straightforward.
I GAURENTEE YOU THEIR ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ARE BEING WASTED IN CHARLESTON.
I gaurentee you their are hundreds of thousands of dollars are being wasted on education... ;)
Well, the fact he can't spell "guarantee" might better be viewed as an indication not enough is being spent on education.
On the other hand, one might surmise that in repub's world view spending money on endeavors with limited likelihood of success is tanatamount to wasting it. From that perspective money spent on trying to "educate" people like him could be viewed as wasteful. It would be cheaper if we only bothered trying to educate those with some capacity to excel.
Yeah, I can spell "tantamount." i just can't type worth a damn, but I should be more careful when I'm making ligh of someone else's errors. (Although that is way too far off to be a "typo.")
like the maha bingmanch said, is jones had done his job, charleston would not be spending who knows how much money on lawyers.
what kind of city vehicle does jones ride in? how many vehicles does the city have? how many lawyers does the city have?
what is the budget of charleston?
what do they want this money for.
what kind of services do the people of charleston need?that they dont already have?
anonymous, you are obviously nothing other than a typical tax and waste wv democrat.when is the last time a wv democrat gave the people of wv a tax cut? when is the last time a wv democrat did not want more?
yuor party wants more from us, then lets companys in wv off the hook for a large protion of their workers comp that they owe.
if we got over 1 billion dollars to pay companys comp debt, then wv doesnt need any more, charleston can get more from the state or they can do without!
plus, because i like you, i am going to give you the best piece of 'net advice i can give....never point out a petty spelling error, because sooner or later you will do it too! and in your case it was sooner!that is "tanatamount" to throwing rocks while living in a glass house.
or maybe it is just much easier for politicians to holler for more money to mismanage, than it is to knuckle down,like corporations do, and be very efficient.
corporations do everything they can to keep from raising the price on their product, government makes every excuse it can to charge us more for its "product"HA!
"Corporations do everything they can do to keep from raising the price on their product..."
On what planet is that the case? Apparently your "education" has been centered on some distant world having no similarity to life on this one.
The rest of us (Republican, Democrat, Independent) who know only about life on this planet understand that corporations do everything they are allowed to do to maximize profit and that they will raise their profits to whatever the market will bear. Only competition makes sellers have any desire to lower prices because that of course affects what price the market will bear. However, as we all (well, the rest of us) know, the money will flow in the direction of products and services that can sold at the biggest premium over the cost of production.
Any corporation that does "everything it can" to lower prices (such as drastically reducing shareholder profits) is not going to exist for long because 99.99999% of the money is not invested by people such as wvrepub who have absolutely no clue about economic reality.
First, clueless Mr. Republican, you should know that DANNY JONES IS A FREAKING REPUBLICAN!
I'm torn between thinking you are actually a clever Democrat pretending to be an idiot to discredit Republicans by writing these ignorant rants and thinking it's no wonder WV Republicans are so widely disrespected that even the Bush campaign did everything it could possibly do to distance itself from the WV Republican Party.
Either you are a diabolical Machiavelli working for the Democrats or a prime example of why the Republican Party in WV is such a joke.
People who are Republicans can succeed in WV only by overcoming the handicap of being identified with an organization of fools. This is a shame because intelligent Republicans actually have a good bit of value to add to the political scene.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
look, inflation,minus energy, has been nearly non-existent for about 15 years.only a few percent a year. corporation try to increase worker productivity, lower tax burden,fine a better price on materials,or their goods they sell, cut out middle-men,in the case of wal-mart, they import goods,they pay employees less.
raising prices is the last on their list of things to do to increase revenues. but i execpt you dont know this, most dems are totally ignorant of how business works.
but on the other hand,they know exactly how government works, pour more revenue in the top, and more crap comes out the bottom.
just wondering, was bush distancing himslef form the wv republican party, when he made several vists to this state? and appearing with shelly capito? he made a visit to beckley. i think that was the first time a sitting president had ever visited beckley. he was sitting beside russ weeks.
was bush distancing himself from the wv reps when he made his second straight visit to wv on the fourth of july?
he has visited wv more than any other president.
now you, i am sure you got a big woody when kerri was hanging out with new york senator jay rockefeller right? or when jay brought ted kennedy to the sago mine area to explain coal mining to him right?
and i know jones is a rep, where did i say any different?
at least i got balls enough to say i am a republican, you,like other liberals, are ashamed to even say your party affiliation.
2/15/2006 12:38 PM
For God's sake, stop advertising your ignorance! Someone who never step foot in a classroom should understand the difference between cost and price.
Obviously, sellers seeks to reduce the COSTS of producing what they are selling, but just as obviously any rational seller seeks maximize the PRICE at which he can sell in the marketplace. It's only external constraints (competition, regulation, elastic demand, etc.) that restrain PRICES.
It would be one thing for some starry eyed hippy socialist not to understand the most basic fundamentals of economic reality, but someone who views himself as an advocate of free market capitalism that ignorant is just pathetic.
Only as complete and utter moron could possibly fail to understand that.
If you are unaware of the many and VERY PUBLIC efforts the Bush campaign made in WV to distance itself from the state party apparatus, I don't know what to tell you. you might try reading a newspaper once in awhile (or better still, have it read and explained to you). The Bush campaign went so far as to issue press releases disavowing the actions of the state party AND filed a complaint with the FEC about activities of the State party and Warners. (you might recall that this one (sadly just one) of the reasons the Warners were tossed from the Party leadership.
I'm NOT a liberal, you dense buffon! I'm just not not an idiot who tries to repeat talking points I don't even understand. (You really should stop that because your complete lack of understanding causes you to mangle the party line!)
People like you (and your equally contemptible mirror images in the Democratic Party) are the reason I'm a proud independent with no use for the ignorant hacks, narrow-minded ideologues, and petty schemers in both Parties.
When you people grow up and stop spewing foolish nonsense in the name of partisanship and actually say something meaningful, I'll reconsider. Until then you can take your Party and run it into the ground for all I care,
the only thing the bush campaign did was tell monty to quit putting out posters with the "bush" name on them.
in your post earlier, you said "only competition makes sellers have any desire to lower price"
now you say "competition regulation and demand"
but either way, the topic was the user fee in charleston, and what is charleston doing to keep its costs down?
you see, government is the only thing with no competition.it can charge whatever it wants for the pathetic service it gives. thats why they take so much from us.
i am against paying more for a pathetic product. are you?
and FYI, huntington mayor david fellinton proposed a $3.50 a week user fee in huntington yesterday!
in a year or 2 it will be $5 a week.
now the state wants to let countys bond out for money to build roards, they are letting more and more people tax us and take our money.
if this anonymous,tax addict cant see that, then he is blind.
Government does have competition, just in a different form. First, you have the competition to control the governing institution. If, for example, one mayor does things many people don't like, the voters will elect a different mayor to do different things.
Second, voters can, if enough of them choose, go beyond merely substituting competing individuals to operate the institution and compel a structural change in the governing institution itself by selecting a competing form or structure for the governing institution.
Both of these take more effort and more time than selecting a different brand of cereal from the grocery store shelf but it is simply WRONG to suggest government need not be responsive to its "consumers" because it lacks competition.
Now, government may not be responsive to YOU, but that is because you have a foolish and superficial agenda incapable of attracting enough other people to compel responsiveness. However, more knowledgable and intelligent people may well be able to form a coalition that will compel greater oor lesser degree of response. That could range from merely forcing the current government officers operating withing the current structure to abandon unpopular policies to rerplacing current government officers to altering the structure of government to impede officers ability to pursue certain policies, to, in the most extreme cases outright abolition of a government institution. The former cities of Osage and Jefferson illustrate that even the ultimate of dissolving a government througfh legal and political action is not impossible.
The bottom line is you are simply unhappy because YOU lack the power to compel what you want from government. That is as it should be. Unless you can align with enough like-minded people to support the changes you want government should NOT respond to your demands.
A few ignorant cranks who can offer nothing but taxes are bad, government wastes money and we don't need it are not likely to get very far because most people are not anywhere near stupid enough to buy what you are selling.
Now, people with some intelligence and understanding might well prevail with the argument that government should provide more of certain services and infrastructure and less of what the current regime is doing and should fund it in a different manner, but irrational tirades will keep you and your ilk far from the levers of power. (Thank God)
The real shame is that people like you discredit more responsible and thoughtful potential competitors to the power structure by making it too easy for the current powers that be to point at you and make the claim that you are representative of all of their competitors. If they can establish that impression, they will likely retain power.
voters will elect a different mayor to do different things huh?
well, i would assume that this theory of yours is not exclusive to mayors, but all positions in government.
lets look at wv then, byrd=50 years
rockefeller, what? 25 year senator, and governor too? nick rahall,15 terms,30 years?
speaker kiss,10 terms?billy wayne bailey[you know, the guy who makes $25 an hour from bob graham to spin chicken] 25 years? sally susman,[you know the lady who is against gambling, but went and played the slots, and got hurt and sued the state!} 20 years or more?
tobmlin,chafin,bankrupt rick staten the list goes on and on, democrats have controlled wv for 75 years!
wv is buck neckid, dead last in median income in america. we make less money than any other workers in america.
we pay somewhere between the 5th and 7th highest tax rate in the nation. since byrd took office, wv has lost 800k people in population!
we are at the bottom of every good category, and near the top of every bad category.
now, if what you say is true about voters will elect different people to do different things, all the names on the list above would be distant memories.
the last thing the politicos in wv need is more money,what they immediately need is accountability, and that is something that people like you are unwilling to give, because you are happy pouring more money in because you think that this "product" known as the wv state government is just doing a dandy job!!!! what a laugh!
First, if you wish to be taken seriously it would be wise not to make outrageously false factual assertions. WV has not lost 800K in population. the peak population was narely over 2 million and it is now over 1.8 million.
Again, I will suggest that the reason those politicians (most of whom I do not support in any way shape or manner) keep getting re-elected is because their primary opposition comes from people like you whom most voters would reject if you were opposed by a skunk carcass.
Any moron can make the statement that WV should be A LOT better. The trick is showing some however small indication that you have any intelligence and knowledge about what needs to be better and how to make it so.
As I have said REPEATEDLY, I think it is a shame the WV Republican Party is so utterly lacking in quality leadership because the vacuum of opposition that reality creates does allow very poor Democrats to retain control. We would be better off if we were offered some opposing candidates who were even minimally worth consideration. Sadly, the Republican Party has not been able to provide them and instead we get mostly imbeciles who do nothing but rant incoherently about taxes and right wing social causes without offering ANY real ideas about the problems thar truly make WV government poor.
That's why you are part of the problem and not in any way part of a potential solution.
It is not about platform it comes down to incumbents getting campaign funding that a challenger has to take out of his pocket. Lobbyists don't give much to people that are not in office. Joe Manchin is a republican but runs as a Democrat because the voting population in WV and most other states are stupid. Joe is the best we have? In 1997 he introduced a bill that lowered the fines mines would pay for violations, how soon we forget. As Secretary of State he gave his daugher's company no-bid contracts. He is hiring Dept Heads as acting so WE can pay them more skirting the State Statute. Two words missing from the sign "Open For Business" AS USUAL.
Republicans normally don't run for office at County and State level, why spend time and money for a 10% chance of winning? Your stupidity about WV Politics is sad.
You are a classic!
"...the voting population in WV and most other states are stupid." [sic-- population is a singular noun and requires a singular verb]
Despite the semi-literate grammar, I think you should propose that as your Party's new slogan.
After all, what voter wouldn't respond to that with solemn self-reflection and a newfound dedication to improving himself to garner your approval.
It's hard to imagine how folks like you with that view manage to fail at electoral politics.
HELLO!!!
I AM A DICKLESS BLOWHARD, JUST BLOWING AS HARD AS I CAN!
I just want to let you know that I agree with the summary WV Republican made about Democrats not being challenged by the Republican party. I'm a registered Democrat, allowing me to vote in the Primary for more than one candidate. Before you flatter yourself with yourself, go to the Secretary of State website and search the Campaign disclosures from the great politicians of WV. If you live in Logan County, run against Tomlin, he only has $293,000 just waiting on the next contestant. You would get my vote because I DON'T VOTE FOR INCUMBENTS.................
Damn! You guys can match your intelligence with equally sparkling wit I'll bet your daddy can beat up my daddy too.
It is a mind-blower why you fare so poorly.
first, i will acknowledge that i made a mistake on the number of lost population, it is 200k, not 800k, i looked at the wrong number at a site i looked that up at.
but the rest of the post is factual and true.
and the other anonomous poster [which i wish would get a name so we can tell one poster apart from another]and you are dead on, joe has to run as a dem, not because his ideas are so bad, but because wv voters as a state wont vote republicans in office. that is changing now, but i was really bad for a long time.
so your thought that involved a skunk carcass is thoroughly and fundamentally wrong.
Manchin does not "have to" run as a Republican he comes from a family that has been staunch Democrats for at least three generations. He runs as a Democrat because he is a Democrat by choice.
Manchin is a "conservative" Democrat, and a political moderate in the big picture, but he so are a huge number of West Virginians. Republican can wallow in self-pity and cast blame on "stupid" voters, or they can start acting like adults and ask themselves WHY so many people with views that would fit in the Republican Party choose to reject it.
As we both agree the reason for the rejection is often not opposition to positions on issues and ideology, it must be something else. It seems obvious that the main reason is the nature OF THE PEOPLE who control the Republican Party in WV. Certainly, any objective person looking at it could see why many voters would choose not to associate with such people even while being willing to vote for individual Republican candidates
While the Republican Party as an INSTITUTION in WV has historically been controlled by folks who combine incompetence and narrow-minded self-interest and it has only made the jobs of individual Republican candidates more difficult rather than less, Republican candidates can and do win statewide.
In the last 10 gubernatorial elections Republicans have won 4 times and Democrats 6. That is hardly an indication that people can't win if they run as Republicans. In the last 10 presidential elections, the Republicans have also won WV 4 times.
Most interestingly, twice a Democrat won for governor while a Republican won for president (00 and 04) and twice a Republican won for governor but a Democrat for president (68 and 96). That means that in 6 of the last 10 elections a Republican has won statewide for either president or Governor. The myth that Republicans can't win in WV because people won't vote for Republicans is just an excuse Republicans make to justify institutional failure.
The reality is though, because of that institutional failure,Republicans can win only if they establish an independent base of support and organization apart from the formal Republican Party structure. Moore and Underwood (and most certainly Bush) both kept their distance from the Party structure preferring to rely on "their" people rather than the Party organization. That's not because they weren't Republicans or were afraid to be identified as such (obviously they were on the Republican ticket on the ballots); that's because they knew the Party organization is dominated by fools who had no respect among voters.
That lack of respect is not because voters are stupid. On the contrary, it is an indication that most voters are perceptive enough to recognize the flaws of the WV Republican Party. They reject the people they know as constituting the Party in this state even though they agree with many of the ideas.
Republicans generally don't fail merely because they are Republicans; they fail because they offer poor candidates backed by an organization of unlikeable hacks and then saddle them with unappealing campaigns.
Wvrepub is our little forum's illustration of the problems with the WV Republican Party. As long as people like that are in the forefront it will never pull even with the Democrats in WV no matter how corrupt and inefficient government may be under Dem control.
You lose becaiuse people can't stand you and don't want to give people like you power.
people like me in the forefront? if by that, you mean people that just are not willing to give cities and the state whatever they say they want without an argument?
you mean to be a democrat, you just kinda have to bend over and take it?
i see. well, we have been bent over and taking it for ,like i said, 75 years.
lowest pay, nearly the highest state taxes.
our B&O tax is double that of virginia. our auto insurance, [before joe sold our right to sue on 3rd party bad faith for $40 a policy] was double that of virginia.
we are all giddy that wv had a $253 million surplus. virginia had a 1 billion dollar surplus.
our border states are kicking the pants off of us!
if not for coal, [something that no democrat had anything to do with putting here]we would be a 3rd world state.
and as a side note, it is the liberal dems, [kerri,kennedy,RFK jr.,algore,]and all the other enviro wackos that want to ban burning of fossil fuels!
thats what wv really needs! a bunch of dems to shut down our best industry and put us all on welfare and other socuial programs so we are all depenent on the for handouts. thats the best way to build their base!
P.S. drop the act man! i know your a yellow dog democrat. see, this is how pathetic democrats and liberals are! they are ashamed to say their partys affiliation! its a nice act dude! you come and call the wv republicans stupid and inept and selfish,and dont even have the guts to let anyone know your a democrat.try to go on the attack as it were. but no, i know how dems are, they are ASHAMED!
Another shining example of your idiocy. I am not a Democrat and I am not a liberal. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound when all you can do is accuse anyone who does not support you of being a stupid pinko liberal?
I view myself as moderate but most people consider me somewhat conservative because I favor a "hawkish" foreign policy, oppose abortion and believe the 2nd Amendment means what it says.
I also believe that the Democratic dominance of local governments and the state legislature is undesirable and that the corruption which is rampant in the state Democratic Party is a large reason why the stare is in the shape it is.
All that said, I still share the common perception that you and people like you are ignorant fools who offer absolutely nothing of value to any debate.
I very much wish we had enough intelligent, knowledgable and committed Republicans in this state to establish viable option in most elections.
Sadly though your Party is dominated by people like you who can do nothing but shout empty slogans and can offer no credible alternatives.
A Party has to be pathetically sad to be inferior the WV Democratic Party, but somehow our Republicans keep proving they can do it.
People want and need government. Mindless tirades against government simply scare people. I'm not going to give my keys to someone who complains my car costs too much ooperate and advoactes driving it off a cliff.
Until, the Republican Party can make some SENSIBLE proposals about improving governmeent it will be rejected.
I will say that Capehart is at least making an effort to giive Republicans a rational voice, but I doubt he is going to be able to succeed in making it the dominant voice of the Party so long as morons like you refuse to do him a favor and shut up.
You have the freedom to say what you want, and no one is happier about that than the Democrats. With you doing the job for them, they don't have to spend much time convincing the public that it would be a mistake to let WV Republicans control government.
http://www.wvgazette.com/section/News/2006021636
Back to original topic, as someone predicted the referendum will be held on a Saturday in July
I haven't made up my mind on this yet. Unlike WVRepublican I actually like police, fire, sewer, road,garbage, etc. services being provided by city government. I also realize that if such services are not adequately provided by the city I will end up paying much more to privately contract for some of those services and my insurance will drastically increase because I am not able to privately afford other of them.
but do agree with bigmanch about how obviously BS the excuses about the primary not working are and it does make me much more skeptical thn might be otherwise
Peter,
Why do you think that your city can provide your services for less than the private sector could? Moundsville has a paid fire department that works 8-4 M-F with Volunteers covering for the remander of the time. The city went into the garbage business again about 4 years ago and now it costs 2x more than when it was a private service. Moundsville started a city fee some 10 years ago and the population of the city is about 1/2 of what it was then with te same amount of police. Maybe some cities should put these services out for contract and see what happens. I would think we might be surprised at the results. I think having an election on Saturday in July is all the people of Charleston need to know about the city fee. Sounds like the Bond issue of last June, hoping for light turnout for passage!
CP
Great idea! Let's contract out police services and let rich folks become modern day warlords with private security forces.
Then us peons who can't afford to do so can benefit from the competition by expressing our fealty to the warlord of our choice in exchange for protection. While we're at it let's just eliminate courts and ship the accused directly to private prisons because we all know they're all guilty any way. then make the scum either pay enough for room or board to make the company a profit or they get killed-- think of the savings! A bullet costs just pennies.
Roads? Hell, just sell them all to the highest bidders and let private companies charge tolls for us to use them.
Sewers? who need them? This is WV and our great-grandparents mostly got by with outhouses and so can we! all this fancy-pants liberal nonsense just wastes money.
Let's just do away with all government and let us be free.
I really think you guys are onto something and just can't imagine why so many people think you are crakpots. Bad rap, you're brilliant.
No more gelt for Danny Boy
Until he shows that he employs
Some judgement in his public words,
I do not like what I have heard.
Tax me where I cannot vote,
And I will ask you to take note,
Of "faux mohawks" who dumped some tea,
In Boston and made history.
That's bad poetry and worse logic. When you travel out=of-state and buy gasoline do you get an exemption from the state gas tax because you didn't get to vote for the state legislature and governor who imposed it? Do you not pay the sales taxes? do the hotels not collect the special lodging taxes from you because you didn't get to elect the people who imposed it?Are you allowed to hunt or fish without a license because you didn't have a say in the license fees or regulations in those states?
Of course not. that entire argument is so incredib;y stupid it is mind-boggling anyone would not reject in two seconds.
Be for or against the user fee as yo see fit, but at least have some freaking clue about things so you don't make your decision entirely out of extreme ignorance and the inability to think logically.
If you think it's better for the city to reduce or eliminate programs and services then vote against it and identify to the city leaders what you want cut. THAT not foolish uneducated babbling is how these things should be addressed.
By the way, silly boy, after we won the Revolution, foreign ships entering Boston Harbor were still required to pay harbormaster fees even though foreigners could not vote on them so you lame attempt at an analogy sucks.
As bad as our politicians are, it seems the most vocal critics are even worse.
Wow I was not thinking of eliminating all government, just suggested that maybe some could be contracted by the cities. I have to think maybe your idea is better! Did some calculations, the State spends $1,777 per person, the feds spend $9,900 per person and multiply that by 50,000 people in Charleston, is a sum of 583.5 million dollars. Do you think that would cover your needs? Remember "all politics are local" We could have better control of our money...............
CP
I can't quite decipher what you are trying to say there, but if your point is that you would prefer that the balance of power between levels of government be changed to provide for greater autonomy and power at local levels and less power and control at higher levels, I'd generally agree with you.
I'd rather the federal government exerted less control over lower levels of government. Mandatory and coerced "voluntary" compliance (through taxing and spending power) with federal initiatives greatly reduces the ability of more local units to be responsive to constituents. Obviously, the share of all money taken by the federal government reduces the ability of those more local units to raise their own revenue. I'd also like to see State government more limited in its power over its subdivisions.
That said, we don't live in a homogenous society made up of relatively equally prosperous cities and counties small enough to provide direct accountability but large enough to possess a sufficient base of capitalization and revenue stream.
Thus, those who are ideologues enamored of abstract notions of philosophical purity would give us a society where the very few had near ideal government services, most would have significantly worse than they do now and many in the very poorest communities would be virtually without any services.
I reject that approach just as stronglty as I reject the "Big Government" advocates who seek an ideal of an all powerful central government dedicated to "forced equaliztion" of everything and everybody.
I think the scale tipped, so to speak, too far to the Feds and needs to come back to the middle but I fear also that it could go too far to "local control" incited by people who are too dim to understand the consequences and allowed by people who simply aren't paying enough attention.
I fear the extremists on both sides of this conflict more than anything else in this life. The only hope we have is that they cansel out each other and neither ever gains power.
However, I am beginning to worry that it could happen. The combination of increasing political polarization among many, increasing apathy among at least as many AND the unmistakable breakdown in civic education and ability to think (as evidenced by the likes of WVRepub and his "negative image" counterparts on the extreme socialist left who simply express ignorant biases that appeal to their visceral emotions with no intellectual appreciation whatsoever) does create the possibility that an extreme element of the right or left could eventually take control.
That may sound melodramtic but when you hear so many ignorant people with such extreme and simple-minded views arguuing with each other you have to wonder.
I never rivaled Shakespeare,
Nor claimed a prize in rhyme.
But courtesy? I have some skill
So let me take the time,
To point out that your schoolboy taunts
Are not convincing me,
Of the soundness of your logic
Or sense of history.
I'll not return your insults.
I've heard them all before.
Why can't your kind make argument
Without being a boor?
You point out duty fees and such
As license for the trend,
Of taxing without voting rights,
You're overlooking, friend,
The fact that these are duties
Imposed for service due.
You can take them, you can leave them.
It should be clear to you.
To tax a foriegner for ports,
Or tax for purchase due
Is not the same as levying
A tax on workers who,
Are only doing buisness there
And cannot simply leave.
I've noticed you have overlooked
Those who are most aggrieved.
To he who works for modest wage,
The hike is sore indeed.
Every penny counts to them
Whom every penny need.
Yes, there have been bad precidents
For "taxing" those outside,
The voting bourne, but why should we
Conclude that your bromide,
Of customary wrongs should work
To relegitimize,
The future wrongs? It's wrong to tax
Outside your own franchise.
The Boston "Mohawks" did their deed
To protest "legal" wrongs.
Well, my dear Tory Anon see,
Which side you would be on!
"Tax all those with no redress,
It's easier that way!"
I guess that what King George, D.Jones,
And dear anon would say...
Ok, this time I'll pass on flogging the dead horse and commenting on your "skill" as a poet. Anyway, There's not much I could say that isn't self-evident
To tax a foriegner for ports,
Or tax for purchase due
Is not the same as levying
A tax on workers who,
Are only doing buisness there
And cannot simply leave.
Yes, it is the same and yes the people subject to user fee have EXACTLY the same option as in the examples I cited. If you don't want to pay a fee imposed without your input STAY AWAY. Merchant ships were "only doing business" and were not forced to enter Boston Harbor. I am "only doing business" when I go DC or NYC and am no less forced to go there than I am forced to work in Charleston.
This illustrates PRECISELY my lament over the lack of knowledge and ability to use reason displayed by people who have opinions on things they can't even understand.
I've noticed you have overlooked
Those who are most aggrieved.
To he who works for modest wage,
The hike is sore indeed.
Every penny counts to them
Whom every penny need.
with this part i will agree. this is a very regressive tax. It's actually WORSE than a "flat tax" because that is apportioned as a fixed percentage of all incomes and isn;t the same absolute amount from everyone.
However, that is a criticism with the implementation and not an argument invalidating the concept.
I'd prefer to see a sliding scale such as
0 on incomes less than 300 a week.
$1 on incomes between 300 and 600.
$2 on incomes between 600 and 1200
4$ on incomes between 1200 and 2400
8$ on incomes above 2400
That would strike a balance by adding some degree of progressivity without becoming overly complex to assess and administer.
It would actually raise more than the current scheme but really poor people roughly below 15K per annum would pay nothing. "lower income" people making roughly 15-30K would pay only about 50 a year.
A person making arounf $60K would pay only about $100 and I don't think the $416 a year is going to break anyone making over $120K. I know I'd pay it without snarling about how liberal pinkos in city hall were bleeding me dry.
However, I don't think the argument that $1 a week is going to force parents to send their kids begging for in the streets for bread money is very compelling and it is abundantly clear that the opposition here falls into two camps:
It's a tax. Them there Taxes is evul. Screw the commies.
Danny Jones is a rich, privileged pretender and it's so unfair he's mayor so if he's for it I'm against it.
Your assumptions are worse than your manners.
If that's within possible bounds.
I'm not a Bircher or a Rush fan,
I'll cast one more pearl in this round.
Yes, a corporate shipper has choices,
But most of us can't up and move
At the drop of a stock or a tax code,
And when thinking of this it behooves,
You to think the precident set here.
Where will this stop, you suppose?
Huntington now wants $3.50.
Almost two hundred dollars to those,
Who are living on less then ten-thousand.
Do you think that it matters sometimes?
You can posit a theory of some sliding scale,
But the city won't give up a dime.
Have you ever, since light was a'borning,
Seen a tax that did not climb the stair?
The government given the whip hand
Charges all that the peasants will bear.
You could argue that for any wrong done,
By the state you should like it or go.
But jobs don't grow everywhere out here,
As us poor Montani well know.
Perhaps meditating on theory,
You've forgotten how most people live.
But your sneering and your condescension
Are harder for me to forgive.
Someday, when you learn to discuss things,
Like an adult, without the canards,
I'll bother with your conversation
Until then, farewell, and work hard.
I was not putting you in them taxes is evul group. you appear to be more of the envious whiner type who resents Jones.
And, yes, anyone who thinks it is actually in his or her best interest to move or switch jobs over a dollar a week is free to do so.
I think that it would be plain that just as the Boston harbormaster could fairly assess a levy on ships using the harbor BECAUSE IT WAS OBVIOUS THAT IF IT WAS WEITHIN REASON SHIPPERS WOULD STILL BE BETTER OFF USING IT than some free port that was less commercially advantageous. the same theory applies here. Businesses are situate here and employees have the opportunity to work for them --if they choose-- in large part because of the advantages of locating in a city with services made available to all resident and non-resident alike.
If municipal taxes and fees bother you so, vote with your feet and go.
That would be the real test wouldn't it? If a city finds businesses moving just beyond the city limits to avoid having their employees taxed then we know the tax is too high and people don't think they are getting value for their services.
If all we get is same old bitching and whining then ...
And, I'm sorry but someone who writes stilted and precious ditties that would redden the cheeks of a 14 year old girl if revealed as her work, needs to develop a thicker skin.
One thing none of you are addressing are the root causes of the City's financial problems. The city carries VESTED pension obligations to current and former employees that far outstrip projected future contributions.
Those are legal obligations that must be paid and that divert money away from all other projects and services.
On top of that a huge capital outlay is going to be required to repair and replace the city's long neglected sewer and storm drainage systems. This will absolutely require borrowing on the bond market and unless the city can show Wall Street that it is collecting sufficient revenues the bonds will require a higher interest payment to retire. If the balance sheet gets rally bad it wouldn't even be possible to sell bonds and in the not so distant future the infrastructure will collapse.
Obviously, we still have to continue to provide routine city services from the operating budget.
Any responsible person would realize that doing nothing is not an option. Hard choices have to be made but any choice MUST involve increasing revenue collections. Otherwise we have three dismal options: bankruptcy and receivership; deferring the day of reckoning to our children and forcing them to pay a MUCH higher price than if we act responsibly now; or simply making drasic cuts in basic services such as police, fire, EMS and the like.
That's REALITY and acting like spoiled children won't change it.
The only legitimate question is HOW to raise the revenue. If you oppose the user fee then you must offer an alternative.
One can make valid arguments that OTHER revenue measures would be preferable but simply refusing to acknowledge real needs removes you from consideration as a credible commentator.
Lets see, public employees are required to be paid a pension that is underfunded? Sound familiar to WV? How many private corporations have neglected that? So why the hell should public servants get a better deal? If you don't have the money it was probably taken by a former politician! So raise the rates of the current workers to pay for the future. These "guaranteed" pensions will be the "straw"
ALLRIGHT!!!!! Now, the life long politicians in Charleston want to create a 5 cent a bottle ,bottled water tax!!! yipee!!!
i am sure that the anonomous wv deomcrat will jump up and support this tax too!! that is really something we need more of is taxes in wv!
these life long democrats that are embedded in Charleston will tax any and everything they can, especially when they know they will not pay a price at the ballot box. remember the "sheep and goat tax"
one of these days, if we dont stop them, they are going to turn around and say...."ALL OF IT!"
You are so right WV Republican. WV is taxed to-till death actually. That is why I love that sign "Open For Business" what a joke. Companies do not wat to relocate to a State with huge taxes and an aging workforce. WV is the only state that does not have natural growth in population. Mr anonymous is wanting a Republican platform to solve the problem. The problem exists why not try someone else. WV voters just need to change the entrenched politcians and make them realize these jobs are not for life. Even if it is with another DEM, just make wholesale change. Clean the House and start over, could'nt be any worse. WV already is the worst, nothing available but moving up.
anonymous...why dont you register so i can tell you [ a reasonable person] from this other anonymous poster that seems to love taxes?
Sorry WV Republican, I'm CP and will tag my blogs that way.
Public servants get a "better deal" because declaring bankruptcy and stiffing employees on pension obligations is not a viable option for government. In the private sector which you exalt as some sort of model, we allow companies to evade their promises and, in case you didn't know this, the taxpayers DO get stuck with some of the bill, directly through the PGC, and indirectly through various trnafer payment programs to the elderly poor.
I agree that past government officials at just about every level were irresponsible in manking promises for future payments without regard to whether the revenue structure would support them. Clearly, current politicians need to be more repsponsible but that can only prevent FUTURE problems. current officials must deal with problems that are the result of PAST decisions that they cannot undo.
You obviously have no grasp of financial reality if you believe the burden of meeting pension obligations incurred feom past problems can be met simply by increasing current employee pensions contributions.
That you even suggest that just shows how little you know about the things of which you complain.
It's this type of irrespnsible foolishgness that bugs me. Ignorant folks like you are easy prey for demagogues because you have neither the knowledge ofr reasoning ability to recognize obvious BS.
Sooo, the state legislature has a bill before them to sell 2 billion in bonds to bail out some local retirements. They tried that with the unfunded state systems and better heads prevailed. Yes the PGB does do this as well, that should not happen either. The companies should be held accountable, period. That my friend does not happen, the CEO types take the money and run and no one takes it back. Who says that Public servants are required a pension? Maybe I am ignorant, but I do know this, just staying the course is not the answer. Look at the current situation, as soon as the State Teacher Unions see that WV might have a little reserve on hand (that is subjuct to accounting principles) they start demanding more money so they can get what the average educator in other states receive. That my friend adds to the unfunded retirement because the multiplyer is based on salaries at retirement. Furthur more, Educators are 41st in the nation on average, while the rest of you are 49th or 50th. So the question is why should they be doing any better than you? Instead of raises, maybe the money should be put into the unfunded retirement. All business or government bodies will be forced to live with the past decisions, thats the nature of it. In WV state politics a lot of these people where part of the past problem as well, (because you keep putting them back in office)so when they point the finger, the other three are appopriatly pointing back at them.
CP
Finally, some sensible ideas. We need to eliminate public employee pensions. Hell, we shouldn't even have public employees. Why should I have to contribute to anyone else's livelihood? Get rid of social security, Medicaid, Medicare, AFDC, WIC, food stamps, HUD, etc., too. If people can't make a decent living and feed their children they're just a burden on society. Let the churches take care of them if their misplaced compassion causes them to think they have the right to exist. Otherwise, let them starve and if they try to steal food, shoot them. It's all this commie redistribution of wealth that makes this such a horrible place that no one wants to live here. And that's just a start. The state should not be in the business of providing transportation, water and sewer, security for private persons or their property, Public education is just a communist plot to make our kids atheist marxists. It's crazy that government regulates how industry does its work. It would be way cheaper to produce if we just let businesses decide for themselves what to do. They're the experts. All thise safety regulations just waste money. I mean, Jesus, a few miners get killed and everyone acts like it's a big deal or something. In the good old days before all you commie tax and spenders took over people just took it in stride because they were tough. Now, you've convinced people that we should unproductively waste money to protect people who are easily replaced anyway. Hey, if you want to make more than $6 bucks an hour and you didnn't go to college, you should expect it to be dangerous. And that's another thing. Why on Earth should government subsidize anyone's education? There shouldn't be public colleges and there shouldn't be any public financial aid. If your parents can't afford to pay for a private education get a freaking job you lazy good for nothing. It's people like you that cause all the problems. Your a-hole partents shouldn't have had kids. I'm just sick and tired of all you scum leeching off of me and it's about time something was done about it. The only answer is to vote for people who will make it so no one gets anything they don't de3serve. All of you selfish people voting for things that help you make me sick. I de3seeve what I have because I got it all on my own annd living in this country had nothing to do with it. I owe you nothing and you just need to stop expecting handouts you despicable parasites.
Oh, but be sure to vote Republican. Put us in charge of government so we can get rid of it and make us all free.
Anonymous of 9:40 am on 2-20-06.
Check this out, Mr. I'm a follower of WV politicians no matter what!
On the 41st day of the regular session the brain-trust you so admire has passed 2 bills out of the more than 1,500 introduced, wow now that is productive! Just a couple introduced today in the Great Senate, you probably will just keep on voting them in! SB 640 "Creates crime of sex assult by hospital employee on patient" Is that not already against the law in WV, would that not fall under the catagory of sexual assult already on the books? Makes me wonder! The sentence so proposed is a 15-25 year sentence that the supreme court (another great brain-trust you vote for) has already determined illegal sentincing, because it does not allow for parole possibility before discharge. See in WV a convict gets 2 days credit for each day served. Any who, SB 650 would give school principals' 15-17% raises, wow. I think that might produce a strain on that unfunded liability, don't you? Remember you were telling me that todays politician can't undo the past, how true that is. So they just keep-on doing the same thing they always do. Remember my pointing at the past theory. I will attempt to keep you posted on the great brain-trust and what they do best, (NOTHING GOOD FOR WV)
CP
I stand corrected, the total bills introduced this session 1,951 as of the 41st day of the session. Still only 2 passed and signed by the Gov. That is .0001025 percent passed after 41 days. HB 4657 would increase state workers incremental pay from $50 per year of service to $372 per year of service. Let me get out my trusty calculator 7.44x more per year. How do you think that might have an impact on the unfunded retirement plans of WV. Just keep on keepin' on don't they!
Not that it really matters, wvretard, because I don't figure you are folling anyone, but once again you are wrong on the facts because you are ignorant and stupid. Neither of those bills you mention have passed and this is the list of those that have. You just prove the guy's point about how easy it is for opportunists to fool ignorant morons by making up stuff
****
SB 247 Creating Mine and Industrial Accident Rapid Response System Approved by Governor 1/26/06 - House Journal 01/27/06
SB 505 Extending time for Fairmont city council to meet as levying body House Message received 02/20/06
SB 539 Relating to qualifications for Miners' Health, Safety and Training director To Governor 2/11/06 - Senate Journal 02/17/06
HB 4037 Correcting definitions applicable to the assessment of real property Approved by Governor 2/7/06 - House Journal 02/08/06
I did not say that those were the ones that passed, learn to read. Just picked today and gave examples of what was introduced. We will have to wait for the 60th day for the total count. If the brain-trust is so worried about the future as you propose why introduce these bills? Ignorant and stupid I'm not.............
by god boys,the bottom line is some of these state workers are going to have to be told NO!
what private sector job have you ever worked where you get to go in and demand raises?
and a poster above keenly pointed out, we are paying our teachers 41st highest pay, and we are doing that with 50th ranked pay! we are paying our workers better than we get paid ourselves!
i think we need to have a policy of say, in even years no state employees get raises, and in odd years they get a raise equal to a COLA adjustment. [i think we should do this with the fed budget too]
but we have got to reign in spending on state and fed levels or this whole thing is going to collapse on us.
remember joe manchin talking about reducing the number of state employees through attrition.then turns around and gives them raises! you give them raises then want them to quit!
the only reason wv is not in serious serious trouble right now,is coal is booming, if some enviro kook like algore or another global warming profit of doom was to win the white house and say he doesnt want to burn coal anymore, that president better be ready to subsidize wv with about 2 billion to 5 billion dollars a year. because this whole state would starve.
we need to vote for senators and delegates that will cut the size of state government. we have like 250 programs that deal with women and children!
the state has lost 200k residents in the last 50 years, but the number of state employees goes up and up. our state spending has gone up more than double the rate of inflation for the last 10 years.
I haven't seen anyone supporting Al Gore here. He also lost WV as did Kerry. As you yourself pointed out Manchin is quite conservative as Democrats go and for the most part the WV Legislature has been controlled by conservative Democrats for over a decade. I suppose your position is that voters are stupid because they mostly prefer conservative Democrats to Republicans.
A more objective observer might suggest that a Party that nominates Monty Warner for governor and Vic Sprouse as leader of its caucus in the Senate shouldn't be overly surprised when it doesn't sweep to victory.
I too want a leaner state government and a more rational tax system, but I damn sure don't want people like Warner and Sprouse in charge (Trump, who is retiring, the House Minority Leader is actually a pretty good guy and a responsible legislator).
Republicans do poorly overall in WV (and this year they will lose seats in the State legislature despite the several scandals involving Democrats) primarily because of the PEOPLE they put forward.
If you are at all representative of Republicans, it doesn't look as if tyhat is going to change any time soon.
I think that is a shame as Republicans had a real opportunity to give WV a two party dynamic in the last decade when the national Democratic Party has been both struggling with its extreme fringe and nominating very unappealing Presidential candidates.
Instead the WV Republicans chose to be led by incompetents and to squander opportunity. That isn't the voters fault; that's the Party's fault. Now, you face an election where the lame duck President is no longer that popular personally, the Party has no money, no good candidates are coming forward and you will lose ground.
From 1998-2004, the WV Republican Party had a great opportunity to establish itself and level the playing field in WV-- and you blew it. Cry all you want but it was much more a matter of you numbskulls beating yourself than were victims of anyone else.
Now, it appears the moment has passed and you will likely slide back to the almost insignificant minority you have been in the past.
Only the most partisan Democrats would think that's a good thing but almost everyone thinks it's your own fault.
i dont know what youve been smoking,but i dont want any of it.
republicans are steadily chipping away at ther democrats lead in the house and senate.
you first paragraph reveals that you dont comprehend what you read very well. i did not say anyone was supporting algore. i said "IF" he or another like minded enviro wacko was to win the white house.
and i never implyed that voters are stupid either. i guess you just pulled that supposition out of thin air. i dont know where that came from.
you want to bash monty warner, are you happy with joe manchins performance? with his funneling of 1.35 billion in state revenues to workers comp? with his purchase of new furniture for his office because it did not match? what about his $3100 persian rug for his office? what about his stupid idea about borrowing 5.5 billion dollars and gambling it in the stock market,the money was projected to cost 5.7% interest, and 1% more per year for the money managers. so the stocks would have had to pull 6.7% a year TO BREAK EVEN! 300 million ayear in interest! the state does have some money in the market now, and for the past four years the stocks we have have not pulled 6.7% a year.
he spent 2 million dollars of taxpayers money trying to pass this stupid gambling idea!
he got busted using the state plane to fly down to get his yacht, then soon as the gazette asked him about it, he wrote a $5000 check to cover it.
Callaghan is happy with 4 bills out of 1,900 being passed. Looks like WV will need some special sessions to get the work of the people done. Did you see the latest news about the school enrollment increasing for the first time in a generation? Don't get excited they just started counting pre-schoolers this year. No real increase just counting more ages. When there are less school children every year, what is the future of WV............
CP
EVERYONE agrees on the problems West Virginia faces. The point is that until more Republicans actually start offering realistic measures to address the problems and stop simply whining about "70 years and look what we have" nothing will change.
Yes, the Democrats have done a poor job. The challenge for Republicans is to give some small reason for people to believe they won't be even worse. Unfortunately, the very few WV Republicans who try to do that basically get drowned out by the yahoo faction and a lot of Democrats are smart enough to adopt conservative positions on social issues like abortion and the right to bear arms.
Anon is right that the Repubs are going to take a hit this year. Manchin is popular, Bush is floundering and the WV Republican Party is floundering. Only losing 1-2 Senate seats and 5-10 House seats would be a "moral victory" the way things are going. Capito should hold her seat but Byrd, Mollohan and Rahall will win easily.
EVERYONE agrees on the problems West Virginia faces. The point is that until more Republicans actually start offering realistic measures to address the problems and stop simply whining about "70 years and look what we have" nothing will change.
Yes, the Democrats have done a poor job. The challenge for Republicans is to give some small reason for people to believe they won't be even worse. Unfortunately, the very few WV Republicans who try to do that basically get drowned out by the yahoo faction and a lot of Democrats are smart enough to adopt conservative positions on social issues like abortion and the right to bear arms.
Anon is right that the Repubs are going to take a hit this year. Manchin is popular, Bush is floundering and the WV Republican Party is floundering. Only losing 1-2 Senate seats and 5-10 House seats would be a "moral victory" the way things are going. Capito should hold her seat but Byrd, Mollohan and Rahall will win easily.
Exactly the problem, you have your mind made-up on who you will vote for and the Primary is 3 months away. I'm even willing to put a DIFFERENT democrat in, as long as it's someone different.
Mollohan is the only Congressman without an e mail address, he's up on technology! People still think that is his dad they are voting for! If Byrd dies in office then the voters won't get to decide who is put in the seat. He will have some 20 million dollars for his campaign, who can battle that? Think for a minute about his age and how out of touch he is. He gets credit for grants that have been sent to WV and we name buildings after him. Should those buildings not be named "US Taxpayer"? After all it was not his money. Look at the geographic location of WV and ask why we are so depressed, in close proximity to 2/3 of the US population. Why is Montana or North Dakota not the doormat of the US. It's our good ole boy mentality, PERIOD. You my friend are too blind by political BS to look at the real picture. VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS for a real change/chance.
I don't have my mind made up about for whom I will vote but Iam not so dense I can't read the writing on the wall and figure out how the majority will vote in these races.
I don't live in his district and I think he is a lousy presentative but I can easily predict Mollohab will win (same on both counts for Rahall). Could decent Republican candidates backed by a Party that helped them rather than being an albatross around their necks win? Maybe, but we won't get a chance to find out. Byrd is probably unbeatable but a GOOD candidate could at least make it a close race and help build the Party. Instead we will get Raese running another half-assed campaign preening to the yahoos and getting beat by 15 points-- if he doesn't drop out and leave Lewis to lose by 25.
Until you figure out that "VOTE OUT ALL INCUMBENTS is just asn empty headed rant when you give no reason to do so, your Party will continue to flounder.
You've gone on for post after post and said nothing but "I hate taxes and the Democrats suck because they did this and that." If that was a viable plan for gaining control you guys would have won succeeded long ago because not just a few people agree at leat in part with that. Since, you haven't succeeded you might just get the clue that isn't enough.
I understand that taxes are vital to run the Government. My concern is why WV is the 7th highest taxed state and 49th or 50th in the things that reflect negatively on the state. Not a good return on your money. B&O tax and lack of young skilled workers are two huge strikes against WV. As the decline has continued for 20+ years you still elect the same people, and must think things will be different. I could not convince you, no matter what. How about convincing me with some kind of positive actions that have been good for WV. All you say is there is no answer, that is just the way it is!
How many freaking times do I have to tell you I AM NOT A DEMOCRAT AND I DO NOT SUPPORT about whom you complain?
You just keep proving my point. By being an obstinate belligerent fool you are alienating people in the middle of the road who are dissatisfied with things. Thus, you cause people who might if given reason vote for your candidates to pass on the option.
I have never voted for any of ther people mentioned in this thread except Byrd and Rockefeller and I've basically only voted for them because only once since I was old enough to vote did the Republicans offer a credible opponent (Benedict vs. Byrd way back in 1982). however, sometimes i have simply not voted for any one in races because I didn't want to vote for the incumbent but could not responsibly cast a vote for the complete joke of a candidate offered by the Republicans (remember Jay Wolfe?)
Moreover, your facts are wrong again. West Virginia does not have the 7th highest level of taxation by any conceivable measure. We are firmly in the middle. What West Virginia does have is a very unwise tax structure that taxes earned income and business activity at too high a rate and taxes the possession of property and the removal of finite resources too little.
This means our structure acts as a disincentive for things we should try to encourage (job creating economic activity) and an incentive for things that hurt the general welfare (the accumulation of huge property and welath by a very few and removal of resources with very little compensation).
We should lower sales, income and the business franchise and corporation taxes and increase property and severance taxes. done in a close to "revenue neutral" fashion we could allow the vast majority of individual WEST VIRGINIA RESIDENTS (including essentially the entire middle class) to pay a significantly smaller amount to the State, make the state more hospitable to business investment and make land and resource holders who transfer the money they make out of state pay their fair share. (Of course, Peregrinus, WVRepub and other numbskulls apparently think that shouldn't be allowed because they don't get to vote unless they move here.).
We could literally triple property taxes and not only would they still be lower than in many states but the typical West virginia middle class family would pay less in overall taxes if we merely offset that increase by eliminating the food tax cutting the general sales to 3% and increrasing the personal exemption on personal income taxes to $6500 per person.
A substantial reduction in the franchise and corporation taxes could be offset by a substantial increase in severance taxes and it would have neglible impact on resource extraction because that is almost wholly market driven and taxes represent a quite small share of the cost of resources when they leave the state.
Now, no one in either Party ever talks about that because the Democrats are largely bought and paid for by the special interests that want a disproportionate share of the burden to be be borne by middle class folks and those middle class folks are not organized or savvy enought to compete against them in WV politics. Basically the politicians sit down with the coal association and other corporate lobbyists on one side and the public employees' organizations on the other and take care of one another.
The Republicans aren't even really players because rather than make sensible proposals for reform all they do is make asses of themselves screaming about taxes.
Guys, the big boys in business essentially ignore the WV Republican Party because it keeps making itself irrlevant. The business folks aren't stupid; they know we have to have taxes and they know they need to be in toto at about the amount they are. They know that and don't waste the effort arguing against taxes-- they make sure that they get to pay less than they should and you and I pay more.
Now when some Republicans start pointing that out and vowing to do something about it, I'll be with them 100%.
you say wv is firmly in the middle in the nation as far as taxation? you care to back that up with something official?
now,i have heardeverything from 5th to 13. but 13th is the very lowest i have heard wv.
give us a link to a reputable site that say wv is firmly7 in the middle.
Is the u.S. Census Bureau official (and neutral) enough for you?
State rankings per capita tax burden (state/local)
Calendar Year 2005 U.S. Census Bureau:
U.S. Average-$3763
1 District of Columbia-6479
2 Connecticut-5400
3 New York-5170
4 New Jersey-4971
5 Massachussetts-4608
6 Maryland-4501
7 Minnesota-4409
8 Maine-4390
9 Rhode Island-4327
10 Hawaii-4161
11 Wisconsin-4141
12 California-4078
13 Vermont-4005
14 Washington-3990
15 Nebraska-3984
16 Illinois-3920
17 Ohio-3906
18 Virginia-3820
19 Wyoming-3802
20 Colorado-3758
21 Pennsylvania-3747
22 Michigan-3686
23 Kansas-3629
24 Indiana-3503
25 Iowa-3479
26 Nevada-3423
27 Georgia-3377
28 Missouri-3282
29 Florida-3271
29 Oregon-3271
31 North Carolina-3268
32 Louisiana-3200
33 Kentucky-3199
34 Arizona-3184
35 North Dakota-3170
36 Texas-3167
37 Delaware-3128
38 Utah-3122
39 New Hampshire-3040
40 Idaho 3014
41 West Virginia-2996
42 Arkansas-2993
43 South Carolina-2976
43 South Dakota-2976
45 New Mexico-2882
46 Montana-2878
47 Oklahoma-2876
48 Tennessee-2757
49 Mississippi-2739
50 Alabama-2656
51 Alaska--2452
This study takes into account all state and local taxes. If you look closely at the fine print of studies that rank WV high they are intended for individuals and are based on what individuals pay in taxes as a percentage of income.
West Virginia will rank high in those typres of comparisons because as i stated above we have an unwise tax structure that taxes middle class individuals too much with income and sales taxes but gives large property holders and resource exploiters a very lenient tax rate.
Those studies are helpful but not in illustrating our taxes are high because they give just part of the picture. What they really show is that the apportionment of the tax burden essentially falls most heavily on middle class wage earners who earn their income in-state and spend their income on goods and services within the state.
Is the clearer picture not the % of income? With your rational that would seem that our income is better than 50. WV Median $32,589-$2,996=$29,593
Virginia Median $53,275-$3,820=49,455
Maryland $56,763-$4,501=$52,262 and on and on. WV is last in Median income what a shame!
ah, i see, a man makes 100k a year in conn and pays10k
a man works in wv and make 50k and pays 7k.
now, obviously the man in conn payed 3k more than the man in wv, but if the man in wv made as much as the man in conn he would be paying MORE!
thats the more realisitc way to gague it. put wv's income at those of the other state, and use wv rate of taxation and see what we would pay!
we pay a far higher percentage of our income!
Obviously, an affluent state with a compact poulation can provide services and infrastructure at less cost per total income than a poor state like West Virginia where people are spread out over a large, and hilly in case yo never noticed, area.
This is the kind of inabilty to think that makes me complain. If you are REALLY so incredibly dense you cannot grasp thse simple facts you are beyond hope.
It will always be more expensive to provide schools, roads, sewers ambulances, fire, police.... to a sparse population scattered across the many hills than to provide BETTER services to the same number of people all of whom live within 50 miles of one another.
If you do not understand either economies of scale or proximity differentials you simply are too ignorant to make any valid observations.
If you really think that things like this will cease to matter and present huge problems for WV if cut taxes then you are just too stupid for words. We already suffer because our servicers and infrastructure are a lot worse than many other places. Cutting spending on them is obviously not the solution. Even if we eliminated ALL waste and mismanagement fromn WV government (dream on-- if you think electing Repubs will do that then your crazy as well as stupid) it would still be more costly to operate governmet in WV than in most other states.
Until you start addressing things that relate to REALITY IN THE PRESENT ON THIS PLANET you will be irrelevant.
1st ill say that wv takes in plenty of money, it is just mismanaged and stolen and wasted.
your right about "cutting taxes will not make the problem go away" but if we cut the flow of money off, then they are forced to get efficient.
here is the best way to look at the numbers !
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/taxesbystate2005/
now, are you saying that ND SD Idaho or New Mexico are more denselt populated than wv?
look at how much we REALLY pay!
"That burden reflects what RESIDENTS pay in state and local income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, luxury taxes and fuel taxes, among others."
As I said, that is intended to give INDIVIDUALS a guide as to which states are most "friendly" I also advised you that there are real questions about the Tax Foundation's agenda and it is not considered the "best" source by any means, but even accepting those numbers, the point is that study DOES NOT give a picture of the overall tax burden just the burden borne by individual residents.
As I said if we lowered personal income taxes and sales taxes, the amount paid by individuals would drop. If we made up the loss from that with tax revenue from property taxes and severance taxes, we would remain where we are in overall tax budent per capita (41st) but we would be way back in the 30s on the burden on individuals.
The amount collected by the State in WV is not high (it's BELOW AVERAGE. The issue is that too much of the amount collected comes from middle income resident taxpayers because of the tax structure.
In WV individuals do bear a higher share of the overall tax burden FOR THE REASONS I STATED ABOVE but the overall tax burdenin terms of ALL TAXES COLLECTED INCLUDING THOSE NOT PAYED BY INDIVIDUAL RESIDENTS is in the middle.
What that means is that with a different tax structure that provided THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY TO THE STATE TREASURY, wEST VIRGINIA could rank much lower in that list
It is almost impossible to get you to understand ANYTHING!
Quite a few states have fewer people per square mile as an overall figure. But, almost all of those states still have a higher percentage of their population living in "urbanized" clusters than does WV. Many states have a few cities where most of the people live and a lot of EMPTY land or a lot of land occupied by huge farms and ranches with very low numbers of people living. In WV we have our population spread out much more than most even if the total poulation density is higher than dome states.
Until you show some slight ability to grasp things you will continue to be irrelevant.
***
"West Virginia is a rural state. By the census definition, which considers all persons living in places of 2,500 or more to be urban residents, over 64 percent of West Virginia's people lived in rural areas in 1990. Among the 50 states, only Vermont had a higher proportion of rural residents, and only three other states had more than half of their populations living in rural areas."
http://www.wvbep.org/bep/lmi/SPECART/SPURBRUR.HTM
Let us just get to economics 101, there are 100 pennies in a dollar, if WV takes 10 for taxes and MD takes 8, we pay MORE taxes. The argument about rural WV and providing services is unfounded. Rural water is paid by the customer not tax dollars, fire service is volunteer, no tax base used, Sheriff and State Police is tax funded, look around we don't have many of each. Sewer systems are predominatly septic, no tax money for that either. So what is it that makes WV need more taxes, all I forgot the WV roads are some of the worst in the US.
I have enjoyed these blogs and I'm thinking about running in two years for a House seat. Here is my platform: Abolish sales tax and personal property tax. Increase tax on coal tonnage to cover the lost revenue. Cut state government, make school systems regional, don't need 55 school systems anymore, if ever. All gambling money minus 10 percent for the machine owner to the state. Bars can have two, no more tea houses. I will need to raise $50,000 for a chance of success, should be able to get money from the voters, just $3 each and they will get it in return after just spending $60 that they won't have to pay sales tax on. How could I lose with such tax cut ideas? Do yourselves a favor and listen real close to your candidates, they will say that job creation and tax cuts are the objective, with no plan or idea to implement. Happens every year and no one takes them to task. I was at a political BS forum 2 years ago and a Senator said "WV will be the most progressive state for technology and jobs in 10 years" so I asked what he had done in the last 8 as a Senator in regards to his statement! I was attached by some people in the gallary for being mean to the "nice guy senator" I thought and still think it was a fair question. Most voters don't take the time to weed through the BS say nothings that they just recognize the name on the ballot and move on, While WV just stands still. I think the Supreme COurt race of two years ago proves that it takes a lot of money and driving a negative point even if it is only half true to win in WV.
"Abolish sales tax and personal property tax. Increase tax on coal tonnage to cover the lost revenue."
That will not work. While the severance taxes on coal, oil and gas could and should be considerably higher, the increase necessary to offset an abolition of sales and property taxes would be so extreme (somwhere between 15 and 20 times higher)it would shut down production unless energy prices have reached something like $500 a barrel for oil.
What could work is reducing personal income taxes and general business taxes, abolishing the sales tax on food, reducing the general sales tax to 3% (which would give us a great advantage over border states and attract gooods and service providers to border counties --which are many in WV) and greatly INCREASING property taxes and the severance taxes.
To be constitutional, property taxes have to be uniformly increased. In order to allow for a suubstantial reduction in sales, income and general business taxes-- property taxes would have to be SUBSTANTIALLY increased.
That would mean homeowners would face an increase the same as large land (or mineral) holders. the difference is that resident homeowners would have the increase in property taxed more than offset by reductions in other taxes:
for example take a "middle class" homeowner currently paying $800 a year in real property taxes. Under my proposal he would have to pay more like $2400-- a $1600 dollar INCREASE.
But, the elimination of the food tax would if he spent $100 a week on food save him -- $260 a year. If he spent another $15,000 a year on goods and services currently subject to the 6% sales tax-- reducing that to 3% would save him an additional $450 a year.
Then if is a "typical" taxpayer paying an effective 7% in state income tax and his family income is say $50K reducing his effective rate to 4% would save him $1500
So, while paying $1600 more in property taxes he would pay a total of $2210 less in sales and income taxes -- a net benefit of $610 a year.
Then the reduction of money being paid into the treasury from middle class residents of the state would be offset by
(a) the 200% increase paid in property taxes by all real property holders other than residential home owners and (b) a realistic increase in the severance tax.
This would allow us to keep the books balanced and have the positive affect of shifting the tax burden from economic activity (the selling of goods and services and the earning of incomes) to the possession of accumulated wealthy which often provides no or very little benefit to the people ACTUALLY LIVING IN wv.
Your idea is good, since most property is owned by out of state interests (85%) I will propose to charge them in taxes what I will need to off-set my reduction. Because we are stupid in WV your idea would be confusing to the general population and the spin doctors (politicians)would do what they do best. Tax the hell out of the natural resources adding $10 per short ton would add 1.47 billion per year. That would take care of half the taxes currently sent to the State. Coal companies will just have to pass it on to the buyer, I suspect most coal is exported. If your idea would be proposed all the stupid people would never vote you in. I know your idea is the most reasonable, and know that is what needs to happen, convincing the stupid people would never happen. Voters elect candidates (subject to interpretation) and I would show them how they would benefit from my proposals and that I don't sleep with big business. I would truly be for "The People"
If you plan on running for office, I advise refraining from characterizing those you need to vote for you as "stupid" and "easily confused."
Perhaps inexplicably, many people don't respond favorably to being called too stupid to understand things and are less likely to vote for people who say such things.
Tax policy is complex in the details and one can if one chooses present issues relating to it in such a manner that only the initiated can understand. However, the key to persuasion is developing the ability to explain complex matters in easily understood language.
People who cannot explain something like this so that a person of average intelligence and education can grasp the important fundamentals, simply is not good at communicating and that is HIS flaw not his audience's.
Now, you could look at someone such as WVRepub or Peregrinus and argue-- "Hey, you can't get them to understand pretty basic stuff, so it's not as easy as you claim." Well, I think not. I think those are just people with closed minds and personal agendas who either refuse to focus on anything that challenges their simplistic world view or they are simply feigning a level of "stupidity" far beyond that of the overwhelming majority of voters.
I think almost anyone can understand-- "Yes, we will raise your property tax bill and it seems like a lot all on one statement, but you are getting more than that back over the course of the year because we have reduced these other taxes. so, overall you come out ahead."
Not everyone has advanced degrees but you need to learn to respect the intelligence and common sense of the "common man" a great deal more if you expect make it very far.
Actually, the hardest part is not getting people to understand you--it's getting them to listen to you in the first place when you don't occupy a position of power.
That's going to be a challenge no matter what, but the wrong attitude makes it close to impossible. I've pointed out to WVRepub how is infantile ranting renders him irrelevant. If you are truly interested in political change don't make the same mistake.
I was just repeating what has been posted on this blog about "stupid" I would not be stupid enough to say it in the campaign. I would say that raising one tax that is a "lump tax" all at once would allow spin doctors to jump on the proposal. The problem in local campaigning is getting the message out and having the funds to do so. KISS keep it simple stupid is the only chance a challenger has. The entrenched will not allow for a meaningful debate because they have nothing to gain. If I told the voting public what and how I would attempt to make positive change and KISS the message, maybe I could win. Finding a single issue that puts a negative light on the incumbent and driving it home is the only real chance, sad but true. My personal feeling is do I want to be considered a "politician" in my life! I currently work out of state most of the year and have considered making my home in a different state. Grass is greener on the other side. WV is what WV is and I aint' going to change that. I graduated with 437 people in 1983 and 90% have left the state for employment. How does WV keep or bring families back with all the negatives that surround the state? I deal with business people in many states and when I tell them where I call home the phrase I hear the most "almost heaven" that is now "open for business" not anytime soon. We are associated with RObert C Byrd and he is laughable outside of WV. I hear and see it all the time. This will probably be my last voting year in WV and maybe Byrd has done somethings for WV in his 56 years in Washington, he well should have. He is 86 years old and it's time to step away and go to the farm.
Where the grass is green is subjective. One thing to remember is that people don't always do things or allow things you don't like because they are too stupid to get what they want.
Sometimes people just want something different than you want. Many people who live in conditions you or I would find unacceptable prefer to live that way than the alternative. Not everyone chooses to strive for professional and financial success as we see it.
Some people just want to be left alone and exchange the perceived "advantages" of rural life for the opportunity to have more money elsewhere.
In a rural states in the modern world the "power" of that way of thinking increases over time almost inevitably precisely because more of the people who feel that way stay and more who seek "success" as the modern world defines it leave.
Realistically, much of West Virginia cannot be made suitable for large scale "economic development," The terrain, isolation, lack of infrastructure and services, and population simply are not suited for much beyond small marginal businesses and boom and bust extraction industries (many areas don't even much of that beyond some second rate timber).
Even if WV were to get its act together politcally and make strides, the investment and jobs will be centered in a very few "metropolitan" areas such as the upper Ohio Valley, Kanawha/Putnam/Cabell, Clarksburg/Fairmont Morgaantown and Jefferson/ Berkely.
The reality is that there is no real chance for the rest of the state to change a great deal internally-- much of the state would only benefit indirectly from GOVERNMENT revenues derived from taxation elsewhere being more plentiful and providing a MARGINAL improvement in services and infrastructure.
No one is ever going to think it is a good idea to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in any of the rural areas of WV to establish manufacturing or service employment on a large scale. It simply makes no sense and there is nothing state government can do to change that.
To the extent some counties have natural resources that can be brought to market at a sufficient profit a few jobs will be created until either the resources are depleted or the market changes. There will never be an automobile manufacturing operation in Upshur County or a High Tech operation in Logan County.
Possibly, with a comprehensive and rational strategy, we could make it so more of these industries locate in the few places in WV where it is feasible but doing what is necessary raises the clannish parochial temper in WV. (That is not "stupid;" it's just a cultural attitude)
Stating we need to give Charleston or Morgantown special attention so we can attract industry there by making them more competitive with similar towns out of state just incites people who think those places already benefit too much from government spending at their expense.
That's not stupidity. You can tell these people the truth: "Look, there is no way we can increase the job base in your county no matter how much we spend but if we target our limited money wisely we can make it possible for you to find good jobs ELSEWHERE IN WV rather than out of state they will reject it. Not because they are too stupid to understand but because they aren't moving anywhere and WANT to stay where they are because it is home and moving to Charleston or Morgantown is just not what they want. They'd rather just get as much as they can of the small pie than relinquish some of their slice so some distant town can grow and make the pie bigger which may or may not help years in the future.
They'd rather have life remain as it is even though they understand it's not great. They understand that people in more populated areas can make more money and enjoy more amenities. They don't want them and they are against spending money to make it possible elsewhere because the immediate effect is less for them.
I appreciate your views and knowledge of the WV concern. I must tell you that as I travel many states and areas of the US big manufacturing is not happening elsewhere either. I offered my companies services free to a local school system, we are essentialy a software engineering company. In short, the mighty education engine that exists and resists was not interested. WV, according to State Education Department, been on top of the technology game for years. Visit your local school and see all the computers that are collecting dust with old software that are essentially useless. Education is the answer to some employment problems and contrary to your belief many of the Tech business start-ups are 50-100 employees needing 4,000-5,000 sq. feet of office space. Internet is available even in the most remote areas of the world, including WV. The education system has not changed and as long as the average teacher in WV is in his 50's they will continue to resist. Economic development would flurish with an educated workforce. WV schools in the recent past have dropped vocational programs even though less than 50% of high school students enroll in college, with less than 20% receiving a degree. Education system needs to step to the plate and change the approach. I deal directly with the business world that would enjoy relocating to a quiet area, like WV would offer. Economic development is a political buzz phrase that most just throw out in the public with little or no understanding. Remember the economic development money floating around 2 years ago, take a hard look at where that money went. Very little job creation that was probably more "pork favors" than anything constructive. Now the populus of WV thinks Joe will fix it all with a sign!
I'm all for education. Even without any benefit beyond that inherent in people being more educated I support it. However, the "education is the key to economic development" argument is a fallacy whhen applied to a specific location.
Educated people can and will move to the jobs and the jobs will not move to them if they are in a small isolated community lacking infrastructure, public services and private amenities. If i am investing money i want to be in a place that provides me with the ability to both grow my business more cheaply and to maintain a stable workforce of experienced employees.
Sure many high tech firms are small. So what? The owners will still make the rational decision to locate in places where it is most beneficial to them. That will not be a rural area from even medium sized cities let alone larger ones.
Good luck trying to sell someone with money on the idea that Clay Couty is a great place for his start-up because it's cheap to live there and Clay County HS has a CS program equal to that in suburban San Diego.
West Virginia already produces many people more than capable to provide valuable services to employers. The thing is, as you stated, is that most of them have to go elsewhere to provide them for reasons other than their level of education and ability.
Education is prequisite to certain types of development but unless accompanied by all the other prequisites it alone will make no real difference in the local economy. It will just make the young people from that community better equipped to go into the greater world and succeed.
Education is one part of the equation but we could have the finest education system in the world and it won't make much difference without the other parts.
Private business investments are the only chance for change. The government is not able to provide for viable economic development. WV has to start somewhere and we already have the education system in place it just needs changed a little. Nothing drastic, because "hillbillys" don't like change. The development might or might not follow. The status quo Joe will not bring about anything positive! JUST TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT! ENTITLEMENTS ARE NOT THE ANSWER! Give people new or better tools and maybe things will change.
I agree that private investment is the only chance for meaningful long-term change.
Of course, many things government does BESIDES PUBLIC EDUCATION (public education is of course the single greatest "entitlement" on which public money is spent) can help or hinder the chances of attracting private investment.
Just as good public schools, colleges and universities can create an environment where private investment is more likely to occur so do myriad other things that government provides from nuts and bolts stuff such as sewers and roads to services such as police, fire, health, to luxuries such as recreation, culture and the like.
The so-called Republican who says septic tanks are all we need (at least a step up from outhouses) ignores the reality that if I'm going to make a major investment I will do it in a place where public infrastructure helps both my company and my prospective employees. I'm not going to invest in a county that lacks adequate water and sewer, police and fire, road and other transportation, etc, when I have the choice of investing in places that do have those things. I didn't get the money to invest by not having a clue about the benefits of those things and I'm real unlikely to be persuaded by some basket case telling me they are just a waste of tax money.
Of course, we can't get from where we are to a place where we can provide such things to everyone everywhere in a short time in one big step. Simply spending money without a strategic plan targeting scarce funds to the particular needs in the particular places that will do the most good is wasteful.
I could pump a billion dollars into McDowell County and give it a 21st Century infrastructure and services and gain very little in return-- because it's still going to be an unattractive place to live for most people and a les than ideal place from which to conduct business.
I could of course get much more mileage from a much smaller commitment of public funds in places that are already much closeer to being equipped to attract investment and are just lucky enough to be in a geographically more convenient place.
As I said no one is ever going to RISK their own money investing in large scale enterprizes in the middle of nowhere. It makes no sense. Sure, we can supply "corporate welfare" and get folks to take our money and open businesses on flawed business models that will flounder after a few years because they can use the corporate welfare to pay themselves good money then move on leaving us in basically the same situation we were before with less money. THOSE types of government programs (strangely the kind most Republicans find most embraceable, are the least rational and most wasteful uses of government money-- nt to mention the antithesis of free-market capitalism because they involve the government choosing to favor one entity over all other actual and potential competitors.
Government should stick to providing the things we all know that are necessary but that only government can or will provide at the level necessary-- infrastructure and basic public services.
If it was directly PROFITABLE to operate sewer systems in WV, we'd have private enterprise doing it. It's not DIRECTLY profitable. The reason for having sewers isn't that you are going to make a lot of money operating them. It's that their existence can help attract things that will make other people money. The private sector obviously is not going to invest money in ventures that merely help OTHER VENTURES succeed. that's why government has to do it or it won't get done.
Assisting the general community in propepering and succeeding is a task for government but no business will do it because that is not why busineeses exist. they exist to make money for their owners.
We have to provide a certain level of PUBLIC works and services so that the people who want to make money in business can make as much money as easily here as they can with a similar investment elsewhere. Otherwise no rational business would choose to operate here.
i wish one of you two nutsacks would change your name so one can easily tell yall apart.
what are you sceered of?
just make up a name darn it!
Your thought about infrastructure is correct. That is exactly full-circle of where we started. Since the current and former state politicians have not done the job to help the state infrastructure, give someone else a try. I try to look at the bills as they are introduced and I'm hard pressed to find anything that would promote development. You write with intelligence, maybe you should seek office and "make positive change."
The majority of the voting public do not know what their representative stands for. As I have professed, all we get are "sound bites" no substance. If the voter is not informed on an issue or candidate they do all of us an injustice with a vote, just because it's on the ballot!
I'm all for giving someone else a try -- just not merely because he is someone else. I want better someones.
Once upon a time when I was young, I was interested in seeking office but, quite frankly, I determined I would have no chance of winning unless I did things that I am not willing to do-- grovel for money and become beholden to donors, suck up to established politicians, tailor my public statements to meet political expediency rather than say what I really think on some issues....
That's very cynical and I'll admit it demonstrates a lack of the will to "fight the good fight" and that it makes me part of the problem. It is true that every time that someone declines to challenge the power structure because of the difficulty, it just makes it easier for the bad elements to retain power. I am guilty of complaining about the absence of good challengers without doing everything I could to change that.
But, I'm not Don Quixote and I can't change the world --or even a small part of it that doesn't really seem to want the change I want. I'm not inclined to put the time. money and effort into a fight I think I would lose unless i seriously compromised my principles. I realize that just leaves the field to those who are not only willing to compromise principles but often have no priciples beyond using the system for the personal accumulation of power and wealth.
Basically, I content myself with fighting behind the scenes against the very worst things politicians try to do which is admittedly less than actually fighting for positive change.
If you can steer me to some challengers who actually are worthy of some support based on something more than "you don't they will be just as bad or worse than the incumbent who has already proven he's bad" I'm all ears.
If, for example, I am offered John Raese and Hiram Lewis as alternatives to Byrd, i might leave the ballot blank for that race but I'm not going to vote for THAT kind of change for change's sake.
I understand your thinking about having to change to be a politician, I however would just appreciate someone being candid.
Give me your view of John Raese and why you think he is not a good choice. His website is not finished yet, really should be complete before publication.
Hiram Lewis, does what I dislike the most about politicians, he gives me the problems, with no solutions. WV normally does not like people to shotgun for office, Attorney Gen now US Senate.
My view of Raese is that he is a spoiled, lazy and immature man motivated by nothing but ego. I don't think he's ever had a deep thought in his life and I don't think he has any interest in policy. He runs for office because he likes attention and flattery.
Only because of his personal wealth and the lack of other even remotely viable candidates willing to run is he in the picture. Assuming he doesn't bail out he will probably win the nomination but he will run a superficial, shallow and negative campaign and lose badly.
The national Republicans just want someone who can top 40% and give them some platform to attack Byrd as payback for his shots at Bush.
Once Capito (wisely because she would have likely lost too but would have made it an interesting and relatively close race) decided to wait for a better opportunity, the national Republicans were simplty desperate for someone who could even mount enough of a challenge to force Byrd to campaign. Raese can do that because he has money and name recognition but all the Republicans are doing is hoping Byrd embarasses himself so that he will lose stature nationally and be less of a threat to them. It really has nothing to do with WV.
Raese's only shot would be if Byrd died before the election but after the deadline for Democrats to replace him on the ballot. Even then I'd give at least money to the corpse.
Since some of you all from the comment section of this blog have been critical of Bingmatch's writing style, might you allow me to present a critique of my own?
Some of you folks really ought to come up with a blogger name. It is hard to follow 85 comments where over half of them are "anonymous". In this format of communicating, where we cannnot see or hear each other, it would be easier to tell who is saying what if you all came up with identities such as WVGOP and West Virginia Republican have.
I'm not questioning anyone's honesty or integrity here. I realize some folks don't like using their real name in internet discussions (I use mine because I really don't care if some people don't like my thoughts or opinions. It is simply inevitable). But it would only take a few minutes to register a name, your own or an alias, and it would definately make reading a thread like this much easier.
i dont know why they wont at elast make up a name either. i also said this and was told NO!
and where is bingmantch??? we are waiting on a new story here man! you mean with the legislature in and now out there is nothing to blog about dude?
or are you busy? mabye you need an assistant?
maybe he finally got a life.
You mean a life like someone who posts anonymous comments on 7 month old blog articles?
A life like that?
As wasteful of a life to respond to a 7 month old blog.
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